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[01:20:16] <iceeey> hi Induane
[01:20:19] <iceeey> you there?
[01:34:21] <joseAway> iceeey, \o
[01:34:31] <iceeey> hi joseAway
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[08:57:20] <CyaNox> morning
[10:18:26] <daraknor> morning
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[15:42:34] <iceeey> hi all
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[16:11:54] <CyaNox> hi daraknor, iceeey
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[17:19:57] <iceeey> wb thebolt
[17:20:06] <thebolt> tnx / hi
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[17:46:32] * Induane hugs tgwizard
[18:43:56] <sueastside> ooh people!
[18:49:44] <thebolt> hi sueastside , Induane
[18:49:54] <sueastside> hey thebolt Induane
[18:50:47] <sueastside> and iceeey, zzorn_ CyaNox daraknor caedes tgwizard
[18:50:57] <iceeey> hi sueastside
[18:51:53] <caedes> hey sueastside
[18:53:02] <sueastside> caedes: did DR notify you of the actions length limitation?
[18:53:13] <caedes> sueastside, no
[18:53:18] <caedes> what is it?
[18:54:18] <sueastside> caedes: well its being saved as a blender string, but it has a certain length limit, so you cant add new actions beyond that point...
[18:54:45] <caedes> ah ok
[18:55:07] <caedes> i'll think something
[18:55:31] <sueastside> k ty
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[19:46:59] <sueastside> PK !! :D
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[19:53:31] <PK> hey sueastside
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[21:01:34] <Induane> lol sueastside
[21:01:51] <sueastside> Induane: what?
[21:02:37] <sueastside> Induane: you should have been in cs-arts and cs channel, there i really said some lol stuff :)
[21:03:37] <Induane> :(
[21:03:39] <Induane> Sorry I missed it
[21:03:43] <sueastside> [19:53:53] Is it just me or does everyone giggle when someone says 'balls' ?
[21:03:43] <sueastside> [19:53:55] sueastside giggles
[21:03:43] <sueastside> [19:54:10] p00f falls off chair
[21:04:47] <sueastside> [21:03:06] I have very high respect for sueastside, just so everyone knows :)
[21:04:47] <sueastside> [21:04:12] he makes awsome shaders :)
[21:04:47] <sueastside> [21:04:39] and?
[21:04:47] <sueastside> [21:05:22] ok ok
[21:04:47] <sueastside> [21:05:26] sueastside rules
[21:04:47] <sueastside> [21:06:24] good minion, go and play now.
[21:06:31] <Induane> lol!
[21:06:34] <Induane> that was lol stuff
[21:07:03] <Induane> I'd play DragonRift's game if he'd ever get the beta out
[21:07:52] <sueastside> ill see if i get some free versions for PT members :P
[21:11:36] <thebolt> i wouldn't install it on my pc
[21:11:40] <thebolt> maybe in a virtual machine
[21:11:49] <sueastside> heh
[21:12:18] <Induane> lol
[21:13:28] <Induane> I do think DragonRift means well but his project isn't planned that well it feels. The team he PAYS for art shouldn't have to ask ME for help.
[21:13:38] <Induane> Considering how little I know
[21:13:56] <sueastside> if you say so yourself :)
[21:16:28] <Induane> well compared to others I know
[21:16:39] <Induane> you - caedes - res2k - people I know I can go to for help.
[21:17:22] <Induane> DragonRift has a hugely ambitious project but seems to be too high strung
[21:17:23] <sueastside> you forgot thebolt, but then again he usually goes "hmm, not sure ask res2k." :P
[21:17:28] <Induane> lol
[21:17:32] <Induane> usually I just hug him
[21:18:34] <thebolt> sueastside: well, depends on what you ask about :P
[21:18:49] <thebolt> and if you haven't figured it out yet, it is because i don't want to go and look for the answer :P
[21:19:34] <sueastside> he does progress sometimes though www.ragecomm.com/dropbox/cloudtest.avi
[21:23:31] * Induane loks
[21:23:34] <Induane> looks*
[21:27:55] <Induane> very nice
[21:27:58] <Induane> very very nice
[21:30:11] <Induane> ./clear
[21:30:24] <sueastside> ./idiot
[21:48:57] <Induane> ?
[21:49:01] <Induane> oh
[21:49:02] <Induane> whoops
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[21:53:52] * sueastside wonders If Induane actually controls his own actions....
[21:57:37] * thebolt thinks not ;)
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[22:20:06] <sueastside> night
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[23:02:23] <daraknor> different time zones = passing ships in the night
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[23:10:24] <daraknor> I was reading your economic ideas. Before a weighted or minted currency people used other things a medium of exchange. Cheese, woodpecker heads, bushels of rice, etc
[23:11:03] <daraknor> In diablo2 gold was useless, so Stones of Jordan, a quasi-rare ring, were used as a medium of exchange
[23:15:19] <daraknor> Cayle is under the impression from the VCA meeting that you guys don't want to collaborate on the development of a game engine for things like AI, combat mechanics, etc
[23:16:01] <Induane> hmmm
[23:16:22] <Induane> I thought from reading the forums that they already decided to use the planeshift code
[23:23:31] <daraknor> no, Cayle and valentin were evaluating 'what needs to be done'
[23:24:02] <daraknor> and then they invited Luca the god talad in to a chat and Luca basically did a hard sell recruiting tactic
[23:24:38] <daraknor> that made people think they would be working in a hostile environment if we developed planeshift-the-engine more
[23:25:29] <daraknor> even worse, Luca's company claims and owns all copyright on submitted works. that doesn't work for most people involved who believe in copyright-as-ownership
[23:26:09] <daraknor> If I wrote an AI and it was included in PS, and then I developed it more and relicensed it to another group, PS could sue me for copyright infringement
[23:26:24] <daraknor> that... didn't go over well
[23:27:13] <daraknor> the hard sell made people distrustful, and luca sounded like a broken record. So when it came time to copyright ownership, people weren't willing to give him benefit of the doubt
[23:27:21] <PK> wait... code _is_ gpl for PS, no?
[23:27:32] <Induane> Right but he doesn't want collaboration basically
[23:27:36] <daraknor> Yes it is GPL
[23:27:39] <Induane> you could fork PS but tahts it
[23:27:41] <daraknor> No collaboration.
[23:27:42] <PK> even if you have to give the ownership to Atomic Blue, you can still use it as GPL
[23:27:47] <Induane> you can't contribute to the main setup easily
[23:27:50] <Induane> thats why I'm here
[23:28:11] <daraknor> We have the ability to use it, but we don't have the ability to contribute changes back and still own them
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[23:28:52] <daraknor> I tried talking about dual-copyrights with a friendly dev member of PS and he said that he would try. Luca is not a native english speaker
[23:28:55] <PK> I hacked in some /sit down and /sit up commands (yes, the "sit up" was my idea) :-) Went into the cvs without any argues...
[23:29:29] <Induane> The real only choice with PS is a fork. Working with the team is too hard
[23:29:41] <daraknor> it didn't conflict with Luca's design goals. Contributing pro-PK world changes get blocked. Levels get blocked, etc
[23:29:56] <PK> eh, pro PK... :)
[23:29:56] <daraknor> *nod* and we were offered dev help by devs to work on the fork
[23:30:18] <daraknor> but Luca said no dev would be given to a fork at all
[23:30:26] <daraknor> no dev time
[23:30:40] <PK> sure, I mean that's understandable...
[23:30:45] <daraknor> Luca plays it hardball, the devs want to have popular code
[23:30:48] <Induane> Its true that PS is further along in development than PT but alot is hardcorded as well. It would be difficult to use for a seperate project in its current state
[23:30:58] <PK> it's not like he owns dev time... he can't give it away :)
[23:31:13] <Induane> PT afacs can be more easily molded to different projects
[23:31:22] <PK> Induane: ask arianna, she did...
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[23:32:14] <daraknor> of course he doesn't own the devs. he doesn't pay the devs. He acts like he does.
[23:32:18] <Induane> PK she did back with MB code
[23:32:26] <Induane> CB hardcoded alot in
[23:32:31] <Induane> including the magic system
[23:32:33] <Induane> Nilaya did that
[23:32:41] <PK> wasn't it early CB?
[23:33:08] <Induane> I don't think so - you could ask her though - but look at teh screenshots - its clear she's using a different skin on teh MB gui
[23:33:18] <Induane> not the new paws gui system written by acraig
[23:34:28] <Induane> daraknor when was the irc meeting? Somehow I missed that it was going to take place
[23:34:36] <Induane> otherwise I would have made it a point to be tehre
[23:34:37] <PK> nah, you're right, looks like MB to me too
[23:34:38] <Induane> there*
[23:35:05] <Induane> Her project was also more simple - virtual exploration for the disabled. She didn't need combat or magic or anything
[23:35:34] <daraknor> last wednesday. Luca said nobody from PS came because they thought it was a waste of time. I think they weren't told
[23:35:37] <PK> still, she did change quite some things... I don't think anyone did more with the PS engine ever :)
[23:36:58] <daraknor> was any of her changes committed back?
[23:37:21] <Induane> some I'm sure were
[23:37:23] <Induane> she has dev access
[23:37:42] <Induane> She commits my changes to the build guides
[23:37:45] <daraknor> I don't think PS-as-engine is bad. I do think they are limited, mostly through development hierarchy
[23:37:52] <Induane> I agree
[23:37:55] <Induane> I quit trying to help
[23:38:02] <PK> she was a PS dev later on...
[23:38:21] <Induane> Spent 7 months on a project to add a whole new area to PS but it was rejected because I wasn't a dev.
[23:39:00] <daraknor> Funny that luca doesn't release what people *shoud* develop if they want new content added
[23:39:08] <PK> what is it actually about that involved the topic of the PS engine? some other game project?
[23:39:09] <daraknor> s/shoud/should
[23:39:38] <Induane> So I brought that here - the source arts already in svn here. I like that. Free to do work instead of begging and trying to sweet talk Talad. As for what daraknor said, Talad doesn't want to ruin the "surprise".
[23:39:38] <PK> daraknor: he explained me once why that is the way it is
[23:39:49] <daraknor> RPG-Gamerz and Ryzom.org both want to develop a single game engine that allows multiple worlds
[23:40:20] <daraknor> nobody gets to write content. *SURPRISE*. yeah...
[23:40:46] <Induane> Its a good idea. I do art only so I can't speak for the feasibility, but I think that there aren't really that many other OSS mmorpgs
[23:41:00] <daraknor> torque and ogre
[23:41:06] <PK> daraknor: if he'd write on the forum something like "We need X to do Y" there would be instantly an awefull lot of threads of some people who would question the very idea, add unrealistic suggestions or just rant for no particular reason.
[23:42:26] <daraknor> PK, of course. But I'm coming from a very open mentality so his method seems foreign. it isn't wrong, just limited to my perspective.
[23:42:34] <PK> I kinda understand that. we had some rather long discussions about the setting here too. Some wanted one time, others three, some wanted everything fully dynamically changing and others were more concerned getting the basics done first... it resulted in just discussing and doing nothing :/
[23:43:21] <daraknor> I'd prefer an open Client/Server, add in multithreading/SMP/MPI2 work packets, AI, easy ability to change basic rules, and let people make content from art library or new submissions
[23:44:05] <PK> you cannot please everyone... if you build a car, some people want it blue, others want it red... some even pink, yellow or green... if you want to please them all, mix the colours, you get a dirty brown noone likes.
[23:44:11] <daraknor> RPG-Gamerz is of the opinion that a single game engine should be able to do WoW and D20
[23:45:56] <daraknor> I think systems like the timing engine might get forked into modules over time, but that is more like version 2.0 than 1.0
[23:46:21] <Induane> PK lol I hope you don't mind all the changes I've made to the main settings area.
[23:46:30] <Induane> Considering all the controversy
[23:46:30] <daraknor> lol
[23:47:35] <Induane> Anyways as for pleasing everyone I think that making certain portions work as plugins (possible?) such as a plugin system for rulesets. This would allow people to reuse rulesets, mod them, or script their own, so while it doesn't please everyone it at least gives them a viable way to achieve their system
[23:48:06] <PK> if you want things all flexible and omnipotent, do it like eclipse (or CS for that matter), but develop a plugin framework and put in everything else later... :) D20 plugin, WOW plugin, CS Rendering plugin, Ogre plugin, Opentree plugin... the possibilities are endless :)
[23:48:12] <daraknor> unless someone says they have authority to speak for all peragro, I'll take the answers given as personal opinion. Is anyone opposed to the idea of a common game engine?
[23:48:31] <josePhoenix> Hard to argue with that
[23:48:43] <josePhoenix> but I'll argue with the feasability
[23:49:25] <daraknor> well we might only achieve 90% code reuse, but that means not needing to do 100% of the work every time.
[23:49:44] <PK> actually, we had the idea of the common game engine at one point or the other before...
[23:50:01] <daraknor> one of the biggest challenges will be deciding what should be "core" and what should be "plugin"
[23:50:10] <Induane> how close is the current architecture of the client and server of PT to that sort of setup?
[23:50:21] <PK> I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep things modular and not hardcoded :)
[23:50:29] <PK> even if it weren't a common engine
[23:52:18] <daraknor> some people thought you guys weren't interested. I'm glad I stuck my nose in :)
[23:52:50] <daraknor> even if people don't agree on an engine, i want my AI to be a system nearly anyone can use
[23:52:56] <PK> who though we wouldn't be interested? probably some compeditors? :-P
[23:53:56] <Induane> I think the issue is just communication
[23:54:08] <Induane> I have been neglect in checking into the forums of late
[23:54:12] <daraknor> misinterpreted thread response I think
[23:54:14] <Induane> had some personal problems and was distracted
[23:54:15] <PK> of course, actually I would hate if I could use your AI stuff only with PT... because PT will change all the time, if I had to port your stuff every time I change something....
[23:54:28] <daraknor> forum < IRC < IM < voice
[23:54:33] <PK> what forum?
[23:54:56] <daraknor> http://www.virtualcitizenship.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209 was one i was pointed at
[23:55:03] <Induane> http://www.ryzom.org/forums/index.php?sid=7f9fa0d2557233aefb692a87e2da302c
[23:55:05] <Induane> ack
[23:55:05] <daraknor> I don't know where the miscommunication was
[23:55:06] <Induane> he beat me
[23:55:34] <Induane> I didn't mean miscommunication really - we just wern't posting around that much - could be perceived as disinterest
[23:56:00] <Induane> or something I said hehe. I remember a thread where I interpreted something and I think in retrospect incorrectly
[23:56:04] <Induane> don't remember where however
[23:56:28] <daraknor> I *really* don't know. Some people will answer question 2 3 4 but not question 1 and people interpret that. Working together more = better understanding
[23:56:41] <Induane> Very true
[23:56:42] <Induane> <3
[23:57:47] <PK> interesting thread... didn't know about that forum actually... even sueastside and vengeance wrote there :)
[23:58:33] <daraknor> Cayle and Morrighu are both trying to join this channel now
[23:58:49] <Induane> k
[23:59:09] <daraknor> Cayle is one of the most skilled and hard working people in rpg-gamerz doing dev work and planning. a lot of UML diagrams, etc
[23:59:22] <daraknor> planned out a ton of classes already for 2 or 3 systems
[23:59:36] <PK> who are they if I may ask? I kinda lost the overview over all the project out there lately... not enough time to read up all the forums, mailing lists and irc logs :)