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[08:59:34] <CyaNox> morning
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[09:30:36] <CyaNox> hi PK
[10:53:27] <PK> Hello CyaNox
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[22:31:07] <thebolt> how about this channel?
[22:31:14] <thebolt> then i get my logs together ;)
[22:32:03] <iceeey> okay :)
[22:34:09] <iceeey> thebolt, well? :)
[22:34:32] * iceeey is expecting a really long response then :P
[22:34:37] <thebolt> wel, you were doing the discussion ,)
[22:34:44] <thebolt> so bring me up to speed on todays topics :P
[22:34:51] <iceeey> okay
[22:34:57] <iceeey> there's only one really
[22:35:05] <iceeey> how to implement the GUI on the client
[22:35:30] <iceeey> to sum it up, i want to implement it with the entity system, including abstracting the GUI library
[22:35:43] <iceeey> I'm not sure how PK wants to do it, best let him describe it
[22:36:04] <thebolt> hm, sounds like the entire GUI abstraction is a candidate for a component
[22:36:16] <thebolt> or well, not sure it should be too abstracted, but a bit probably
[22:36:20] <PK> aö,pst cp,üpmemts tough
[22:36:23] <PK> darn :(
[22:36:29] <PK> almost components though
[22:36:44] * PK sliped with one hand a few keys to the side :)
[22:37:02] * iceeey gasps at weird-looking foreign characters :P
[22:37:34] <iceeey> almost components?
[22:37:55] <PK> I think it would be good to have an interface for each window, like Inventory, ChatDialog, etc that can be implemented.
[22:38:30] <PK> if someone wants, he could implement iInventory and iChat to make a window that contains chat and inventory in one.. but that's just an odd example :)
[22:38:52] <PK> anyway, it would keep all the CEGUI part hidden from the rest of the code
[22:39:02] <PK> and it would keep the different windows separated.
[22:39:03] <thebolt> hm, i would say inventory window is rather an entity
[22:39:28] <PK> it might even be possible to use different gui systems if needed (if you'd like to migrate to another system over time or so)...
[22:39:29] <iceeey> well the entity is the inventory :)
[22:39:46] <thebolt> the component would be a GUI abstractor with stuff along the lines "loadlayout(...)" "registerevent(..)" (you get the general idea)
[22:39:50] <PK> thebolt: well, the entity is the data provider for the window... no?
[22:40:45] <thebolt> well, i don't think the logical representation (the inventory entity) should be mixed with a specific presentation of it (the window its shown in)
[22:40:48] <iceeey> maybe it's that we didn't really define where the View fits into the entity system..
[22:40:57] <iceeey> yea..
[22:41:55] <PK> MVC.... the gui is the View (obviously) and also part of the controler (or one of it, if you drag and drop something) and the entity is the model.
[22:43:59] * thebolt isn't sure a MVC model is optimal for games ;) at least not a strict one
[22:46:31] <thebolt> but it is a bit complicated one to solve, possibly
[22:46:57] <PK> well, maybe not for a game... but how much game relevant is the client gui?
[22:47:03] <PK> it's just like any other application as well
[22:47:19] <PK> whether it's and IRC client or a mmorpg, gui is gui
[22:48:06] <iceeey> if you want to break it down: client you have MVC, server you have only model/controller.. perhaps you could say the view on the server is what is sent over the network to each client
[22:50:22] <iceeey> client's model is basically read-only, and can be changed only by the controller sending action requests to the server
[22:53:44] <PK> at least the model that is being synced from the server, yes. But I would make everything on the client depending on the server. Only the things that can be exploited.
[22:54:30] <PK> hm, that just feels like that AJAX project I'm currently writing at work :) let the client do stuff in javascript but don't trust the requests it sends :)
[22:54:47] <thebolt> well, one difference i see between "standard" MVC and what we've been talking about is that the model (if that is the entities) push stuff to the view (CS) via components
[22:55:30] <iceeey> which is interesting because the components are supposedly part of the model
[22:55:51] <PK> which components?
[22:55:59] <iceeey> entity components
[22:56:05] <PK> then I agree
[22:56:08] <thebolt> "mesh" (or whatever you call it) components etc
[22:56:43] <PK> then I'm not sure if I agree or not... :)
[22:57:11] * iceeey doesn't know what we're talking about ;)
[22:57:27] * PK knows that everyone talks about something else :)
[23:04:12] * PK wonders if it might be a good idea to draw some graphical concept of all the components, modules, plugins and whatever else we need and how they work together. Just for the greater understanding and documentation (which seems to come too short all the time)
[23:05:25] <thebolt> well, we have so far not discussed the specific components, entities etc that is needed, but rather the framework to build them in
[23:05:41] <iceeey> yea.. PK you are talking abotu the framework right?
[23:08:28] <PK> I talking about the "systemdesign" :) although that work rather sounds nice than saying anything... the system is the whole application with everything together.
[23:08:35] <PK> s/work/word/
[23:09:52] <PK> so, what I mean is the server, the client, the gui parts, the CS parts, the entities, the network, the database, the navigation mesh... well, all components / plugins we need.
[23:11:20] <iceeey> so, everything
[23:11:26] <PK> yep
[23:11:28] <iceeey> yes, that would be useful
[23:12:04] <PK> also define what we call a comonent, what a model and what a module... not to forget the plugins... or we'll end up talking about different things all the time :)
[23:12:06] * thebolt thinks that would probably be a too big chunk to do at once
[23:12:22] <iceeey> thebolt, agreed, framework first
[23:12:34] <iceeey> you were going to make header files, right?
[23:12:36] <thebolt> some agility people.. iterative, test-driven development
[23:12:54] <thebolt> yes, but real-life have kept me busy for a few days
[23:13:00] <iceeey> i figured
[23:13:05] <iceeey> how is the situation now?
[23:13:09] <thebolt> but now it is going into more holiday-mode .)
[23:13:13] <iceeey> ah k
[23:13:25] <iceeey> i caught a cold, so i am rather tired.. :/
[23:14:57] <iceeey> PK, component is pretty well defined: it is part of the entity system.. it is on the wiki.. I don't recall discussing any of the other terms
[23:15:14] <CyaNox> gn
[23:15:23] <iceeey> but anyway, I would volunteer to try and make the framework diagram
[23:15:32] <iceeey> if i can find the energy
[23:15:36] <PK> iceeey: cool
[23:15:55] <PK> I hope you get well soon (not only because you could work more on PT then...)
[23:16:56] <iceeey> thanks
[23:17:34] <thebolt> bah, colds are not short-timed events.. they are constant states ;)
[23:17:58] <iceeey> yes, very draining
[23:18:46] <thebolt> rather ment that it isn't any difference from normal ;)
[23:19:12] <iceeey> ha
[23:19:27] * iceeey passes his sickness to thebolt
[23:19:30] <iceeey> we'll see
[23:19:31] <iceeey> :)
[23:22:22] <thebolt> already have one ;)
[23:22:43] <iceeey> maybe it's not bad enough :)